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Backup Exec

**UPDATED** Quality Wins Every Time: vSphere 5.1 Support

Created: 20 Nov 2012 • Updated: 28 May 2014 • 98 comments • Translations available: 日本語
Drew Meyer's picture
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STATUS UPDATE 2/25/14: In case you somehow missed the news, on November 19, 2013 Backup Exec SP3 came out and includes support for vSphere 5.5.

STATUS UPDATE 4/7/13: Backup Exec 2010 and 2012 will both support vSphere 5.1 in their next service packs, due in July. Beta testing starts in May so read here for more details and a link to sign up.
 

STATUS UPDATE 1/17/13: We stated earlier that we had uncovered significant quality concerns when testing VMware’s vSphere 5.1 APIs with Symantec backup products. After close work together, VMware acknowledged these issues and announced the VDDK 5.0 Update 1 APIs.

Here’s the latest information for customers using or planning to use VMware vSphere 5.1:

  1. Backup Exec will support vSphere 5.1 in the patch releases for both BE 2010 and BE2012. More details and beta program registration are available here.
  2. NetBackup 7.5.0.4 is now qualified for use with vSphere 5.1. The details are available here.

We thank our friends at VMware for their efforts and appreciate your patience while we aligned on quality joint solutions.

ORIGINAL POST: We’ve seen backup complexity explode in the last few years, encompassing tape, disk, physical, virtual, de-duplication and cloud components. Data quantities are increasing exponentially and virtualization is expanding its footprint in all IT environments. Symantec is committed to making backup and recovery functions as reliable as possible during this environmental evolution.

In the last decade Symantec and VMware have jointly developed solutions for the most advanced and complex virtual environments in the world. We are humbled and grateful that customers continue to choose NetBackup or Backup Exec more often with VMware than any other option.

Symantec and VMware are unwaveringly dedicated to quality in our jointly developed solutions. During our testing with the VMware vStorage 5.1 API Symantec encountered issues* that introduce risk performing consistent backups and ensuring reliable restores. We raised these concerns with our friends at VMware, who documented them in their knowledge base and in the VMware vSphere 5.1 release notes.  VMware expects a vStorage API update, and at that time we expect to retest and once again support joint solutions.

During these weeks of close examination VMware also confirmed that any 3rd party vendor depending on the current API may be impacted by these issues. We can only conclude that compatibility and support claims from other vendors are either poorly informed or possibly represent a more cavalier “ship-and-fix” data protection approach than Symantec is willing to accept. We welcome your questions and comments.

Sincerely,

The Symantec Backup Exec and NetBackup teams

@backupexec
@netbackup
@vmware

*Three specific issues are called out in the VMware vSphere 5.1 release notes:

  • Occasional segmentation-violation crashes during library disconnect
  • Hang in connect or cleanup due to intermittent race condition
  • Disk Open fails without an SSL thumbprint from vCenter

Comments 98 CommentsJump to latest comment

CraigV's picture

Nice one...you need to get this pinned to both forums for better visibility. A number of forumites have asked when Symantec will support VMware vSphere 5.1, and your update here will definitely give them the information they're looking for! yes

Alternative ways to access Backup Exec Technical Support:

https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/blogs/alte...

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Drew Meyer's picture

Pinned! Thanks for the help Craig.

Director of Marketing, NetBackup
@DrewMeyerSYMC

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MMoret's picture

Hi,

Good to see the clear communication about this.

I spoke to another backup vendor who stated:
We use the vddk 5.0U1 to backup vSphere 5.1 as it does not state in the release notes of this vddk that 5.1 is not supported (it does not state that it is supported as well...).

I have tested this setup and did not ran into any problems.

Can you comment on this setup?

Regards,
Martijn Moret

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Martijn,

  RE: We use the vddk 5.0U1 to backup vSphere 5.1 as it does not state in the release notes of this vddk that 5.1 is not supported 

  That is quite an amusing statement from a vendor! Why would VMware go back to release notes of an older version of VDDK and explicitly state that newer versions of vSphere will not be supported? Isn't that like expecting Ford to document that strut mount from 2012 model may not fit on 2011 model especially when 2012 had undergone a refresh? It is sad that a vendor would take an approach like this and put data at risk. 

  Having said that we had asked the same question to VMware whether we can use older version of APIs with vSphere 5.1. VMware had not tested that configuration and they were reluctant to recommend it. After realizing the impact for 5.1 customers with updated APIs, they have finally agreed to look into that option. Please stay tuned. We are working closely with VMware so as to provided enterprise grade protection for customers wanting to upgrade to vSphere 5.1. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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w-d's picture
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Tallwood6's picture

Great to get some clarification quite why it took this long though. I don't suppose vmware have indicated roughly how far off this vstorage api update is?

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@BackupMikko's picture

We have been working closely with VMware ever since the beginning of the beta-process in addressing the issues that have been preventing us from providing vSphere 5.1 support.

VMware is publishing release notes for each VDDK version and updating those as needed but these notes only cover supported platforms, compatibility notices, resolved issues and known issues and workarounds. There are no details on component/design changes on the release notes.

VDDK Release Notes can be found here and SDK/documentation can be found here.

Warm Regards,

Mikko

@BackupMikko

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BigTimeOne's picture

If we use vSphere 5.1 with NetBackup 7.1.0.4.

Should we still be OK since NetBackup will only use VDDK 5.0 and not 5.1?

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi BigTimeOne, 

   It is recommended to wait until we sort this out with VMware. In general VMware tests current version of APIs with current version of vSphere and its predecessors just like any other software developer. This is the classic backward compatibility assurance approach. What you are proposing is forward compatibility (5.0 versions of API to work with 5.1 version of vSphere)? We had asked the very same question to VMware and originally they were reluctant to test and certify forward compatibility (which is understandable). However Symantec is indeed working with VMware to see if forward compatibility is a possibility to help customers upgrade to vSphere 5.1. Please stay tuned. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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BigTimeOne's picture

Thats backward compatibility. We are using an older VDDK 5.0 client ie. NetBackup 7.1.0.4 to connect to newer VDDK 5.1 vSphere 5.1 Servers.

Same as Symantec Endpoint Client 11.5 reporting/syncing with SEPM 12.1 Server

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AbdulRasheed's picture

VMware disagrees with you (as of today). 

VDDK 5.0

http://www.vmware.com/support/developer/vddk/VDDK-...

VDDK 5.0 adds support for ESXi 5.0 and vCenter Server 5.0, and now works with the following VMware platform products:

  • ESX/ESXi versions: 5.0, 4.1, 4.0, and 3.5
  • vCenter Server versions: 5.0, 4.1, and 4.0 managing ESX/ESXi 3.5 and later
  • VirtualCenter version: 2.5 managing ESX/ESXi 3.5

(Note: 5.0U1 is a bug-fix release, no new support was added) 

VDDK 5.1

http://www.vmware.com/support/developer/vddk/VDDK-...

The Virtual Disk Development Kit (VDDK) 5.1 is an update to support vSphere 5.1 and to resolve issues discovered in previous releases. VDDK 5.1 adds support for ESXi 5.1 and vCenter Server 5.1, and was tested with the following VMware platform products:

  • ESXi 5.1, ESXi 5.0, and ESX/ESXi 4.1
  • vCenter Server 5.1 and vCenter Server 5.0 managing ESX/ESXi 4.1 and later

In other words, VMware's approach in backward compatibility is that **newer versions of VDDK** will have support for **older versions of vSphere**. 

Hope this helps. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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BigTimeOne's picture

That is only because when VDDK 5.0 release notes were created vSphere 5.1 did not exist.

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi BigTimeOne,

Inspired by your constructive criticism, I created this personal blog (this is not affiliated to Symantec) to explain this further. http://www.mrvray.com/2012/11/whats-up-with-vadp-backups-and-vddk-on-vsphere-5-1/

Hope this eliminates the confusion. Whenever there is proliferation to a new platform or release, a new release update may arrive or the existing release notes will be updated. This is common practice in software industry. Both Symantec and VMware do that. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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MMoret's picture

From what I heard @ Symantec Vision, vSphere 5.1 is completely not supported.
You should be ok, but do not count on getting support!

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Tallwood6's picture

Anyone from symantec care to comment on the following, aside from all the marketing rubbish some valid points are raised?

http://www.veeam.com/blog/symantec-admits-all-its-vmware-backup-customers-are-in-danger.html

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Tallwood6,

   I work for Symantec. However opinions from me (other than those where I post as an author for Symantec official blogs) need not represent those of my employer. 

   First of all, no vendor was explicitly called out in Drew's blog. He was simply relaying what VMware had also posted in their own knowledge-base. 

   Secondly, to honor your request, I am not commenting on the 'marketing rubbish' part. 

   Finally, let us get to the real meat of what you were asking for. 

   1. There is an argument on Symantec said "will cause failures" and VMware said "may cause failures". In my opinion, that argument is plain silly. Whether it is a "may" or "will", you cannot take a chance when it comes to enterprise data protection. I have worked here in Symantec for years. Even when there is tiny fraction of a chance for data protection risk,  Symantec issues TechAlerts (Product Alerts) instead of silently fixing the issue. You have access to this information on external facing support website. Most of the competitors need you to have a specific support contract and login to access such type of vital information. This level of transparency with customers and prospects had always been a strength for Symantec. 

   2. Technical explanation: It resolved a mystery for me. I had always wondered why a VMware backup product does not get VMware Ready certification. I have seen some scripted and unconvincing responses in the past on that topic. I have direct experience in working with VMware on getting VMware Ready certification. Among many things, one thing that they would test is to make sure that callers of the API play by rules. This included port validations, SOAP call styles and many more. The goal is to ensure the product/solution in question is conforming to APIs as VMware is putting its reputation and brand behind that integration. Of course, a vendor can certainly workaround it, then the question is…

     As we do not live in a perfect world, software defects and edge cases are likely to happen. The so called claim for "immunity" is a bit premature. Let us give the benefit of doubt and assume that a solution is immune to issues in APIs because of some wrapped code. Any software developer will admit that bugs can creep in any part of the code. There is no guarantee or immunity if data loss occurs on account of the wrapper code. 

   In the unfortunate event that you did encounter a data loss issue; would you rather stand behind VMware and data protection leader like Symantec, or take the word of someone who had provided a workaround? Please don't get me wrong. I have huge respect for engineers in Symantec and other vendors who think outside the box and come up with innovative ways to solve customers' problems. What I am thinking about is the confidence in deploying a solution that is endorsed by two major brands. 

Once again, these are my own opinions! 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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CvBarney's picture

Why do you constantly change this post? Keep your story or don't publish!

First you stated:

VMware expects a vStorage API update during the first calendar quarter of 2013, and at that time we expect to retest and once again support joint solutions.

Now that's changed. Q1 2013 is too late for your customers?

And you say in the first version:

During these weeks of close examination VMware also confirmed that any vendor depending on the current API cannot perform consistent backups and cannot ensure a reliable recovery point.

And now they "may be impacted"?

If this is this the quality you talk about....

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SeanRegan's picture

It is not appropriate for Symantec state or confirm shipment dates for VMware products. 

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SeanRegan's picture

This does not effect older versions of Symantec's VMware support. It only impacts 5.1 because of changes made specifically to 5.1. When the fix is available from VMware and we can code to it and QA it we will release support.  

There are issues in all 3rd party APIs and development kits. The product team writing to the API needs to make a quality call.  Sometimes those issues create situations that will negatively impact backup, sometimes they do not. If they do, we won't ship until they are fixed. 

Out blog made no mention of specific vendors other than to state that all vendors get the same API to work with. It is up to the vendor to make a decision how they want to handle this issue.  From a marketing standpoint it is easy to ship and fix. But, from a quality and reliability standpoint it is not the right decision. 

Here is a list of the 23 vendors who have received VMware VMReady designations from VMware.The vendor mentioned previously is not on this list. https://solutionexchange.vmware.com/store/categories/backup-and-availability

There are ways to rush support and do workarounds but they do not lend themselves to long term reliability and quality. Our position as noted above is to wait for the 5.1 VDDK updates from VMware and then ship support. Anthing else requires a quality compromise or workaround with the API that we don't believe is in the best interest of customers. 

(edit for spelling) 

 
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SeanRegan's picture

Here is more information about VMware ready status for those unfamiliar with it. http://www.vmware.com/partners/programs/vmware-ready/application_software.html

Key Criteria: 

  • Software vendors that fully support their products on VMware virtualization solutions can qualify for the VMware Ready logo. 
  • VMware Ready logo visibly demonstrates confidence and simplifies purchase decisions for any customer using a virtualized infrastructure. 
  • Demonstrate successful operation by passing a workload test against a virtual configuration of the application and submitting the results to VMware
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CvBarney's picture

Ahh well...Ask vRanger customers the value of VMware Ready certification...

Quest announced they had achieved VMware Ready for vSphere 5 with the vRanger 5.2 release. But customers realized after the upgrade that, despite being vSphere 5 certified, they still did not support VMFS5... Ask VMware how they granted vSphere 5 ready certification to the solution which does not support one of the biggest features of this release...

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi CvBarney, 

   Sorry to hear about vRanger customers. As I have direct experience in getting a product VMware Ready certified, I will add my 2 cents. 

   When a product undergoes tests for VMware Ready certification, among many things, what VMware is looking to validate is whether the product plays by the rules of APIs provided by VMware. This is how they validate deeper integration with vSphere. They take this very seriously as they are putting their reputation and brand behind the integrated solution. 

   VMware Ready certification is not necessarily an indication that VMware tested all aspects of the product. It looks like vRanger is indeed playing by VADP/VDDK rules and that could be how they received the certification. However, I do agree that the lack of VMFS5 support is a major hole in that story! 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Tallwood6's picture

This blog entry has been completely reworded! The fact of the matter is there are solutions now offering vsphere 5.1 support using both vddk 5 & 5.1 providing RELIABLE backup and restores by simply implementing what sound to be sensible safeguards.
You can flash round vmware ready logos all you like fact of the matter is symantec looks like it isn't ready for very much comming out of vmware at the moment. Customers don't want excuses and logos they want commitments, timescales and solutions none of which are being provided currently.

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Tallwood6,

  I had responded to one of your earlier posts. Hope that helps to clarify a few things. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Dushan Gomez's picture

So when this vSphere 5.1 will be supported ?

http://www.veeam.com/blog/symantec-admits-all-its-...

Veeam says that Symantec is misleading us ?

Dushan Gomez
IT Manager
VCP 4 and 5 | MCITP Exchange Server | MCTS SharePoint Server | MCP Windows XP

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John Santana's picture

Spot on :-)

Kind regards,

John Santana
IT Professional

--------------------------------------------------

Please be nice to me as I'm newbie in this forum.

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Dushan,

   Tallwood6 had a similar question on the blog you had referenced. Kindly see my response there. Hope that helps. 

   We are working with VMware in getting you enterprise class protection for vSphere 5.1. As Sean mentioned, we are unable to give you a solid date at this time as we are not allowed to talk about VMware's plans. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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BigTimeOne's picture

It looks like VDDK 5.0 has similar or same issues so how can Symantec claim support for vSphere 5.0 and not 5.1?

Also isnt Symantec part of the vmware Beta Test teams. Why was this not fixed for the GA of 5.1?

We are backing up vSphere 5.1 with NetBackup 7.1.0.4 so far no issues.

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi BigTimeOne,

  Sean had already answered this question in an earlier comment. Let me copy-paste part of his comment. 

This does not effect older versions of Symantec's VMware support. It only impacts 5.1 because of changes made specifically to 5.1. When the fix is available from VMware and we can code to it and QA it we will release support.  

There are issues in all 3rd party APIs and development kits. The product team writing to the API needs to make a quality call.  Sometimes those issues create situations that will negatively impact backup, sometimes they do not. If they do, we won't ship until they are fixed. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Tallwood6's picture

So we've now got to wait until:

  1. VMWARE updates the API (no timescale)
  2. Wait for symantec to test the new release (taken 2 months to test current release)
  3. Code and test new release

So we are looking at possibly 3-6 months before its supported... give it a couple more months and the next version of vsphere could be announced!

You are giving your customers 2 options at the moment, run backup exec on vsphere 5.1 unsupported or use a different product because know one who requires vsphere 5.1 is going to wait that long.  

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Tallwood6, 

  I don't mean to sound like a broken record; but we are indeed working with VMware for a short term solution as well. Remember that other vendors who currently claim support had either shipped with back level version of APIs or had built some hacks. Both approaches are not endorsed by VMware. It just happened that Symantec came out and publicly stated the risks and decided to stand behind quality instead of 'time-to-market'. On a long run, this is what had made customers trust Symantec's offerings. I understand that there are claims in the market stating that Symantec is delaying things. The reality is that Symantec had been working with VMware even before vSphere 5.1 was beta and numerous points in release notes were based on tests Symantec had done. 

  Unfortunately, I am not able to give you a time line. We will make sure that both short term and long term solutions would have endorsement from VMware (unlike the method adopted by some other vendors). 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Tallwood6's picture

A short term solution would be great! At the moment it just looks like you've kicked the ball straight into VMware’s court.

I guess what frustrates me is a decision seems to have been made by developers / quality assurance without seeming to take the immediate needs of customers into consideration. Yes backup and restore reliability is paramount but a balance needs to be struck but something looks out of kilter when quite a number of your competitors have clearly looked at the issues a decided that working round the issues and providing support for the platform is more important that burying heads in the sand. After all customers using vsphere 5.1 have little choice than to use the product unsupported at the moment which has got to be worse possible situation all round.

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BigTimeOne's picture

6-8 months between all their releases and testing.

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BigTimeOne's picture

AbdulRasheed please keep us posted on backing up vSphere 5.1 with NetBackup 7.1.0.4 using VDDK 5.0 API instead of VDDK 5.1

We have been backing up hundreds of VM with this combo and no issues so far.

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BigTimeOne's picture

If working closely with VMware why release this news 2+ months after GA of 5.1?

Basically vSphere 5.1 can not be used since you are saying no vendor supports it.

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Tallwood6's picture

There are vendors that support it, including one vendor on that list of "vmware ready" solutions providers.

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BigTimeOne's picture

According Symantec that is not possible since all use the same API. So who is telling the truth?

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SeanRegan's picture

Welcome to the forum. This point was raised in the original post. VMware has identified issues with the 5.1 VDDK. Those issues impact the ablity of 3rd party backup vendors to perform backups for 5.1.  All vendors get the same VDDK/API. 

It is possible to claim support.  However, given the 5.1 VDDK issue, claims of support necessate a compromise in quality/reliability or a workaround by the backup vendor. Our engineering team does not feel these solutions are appropriate and we have opted for the choice outlined in the original post.  

We will ship support for VMware 5.1 when we receive the updated VDDK from VMWare and we are able to code, QA and release a high quality of support. 

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BigTimeOne's picture

So between their update release schedule, your testing and you releasing an update that coincides with your release schedule.

We are realistically looking at 6-8 months.

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Tallwood6's picture

AbdulRasheed was actually making some progress convincing us that symantec was proactively looking at something which didnt involve waiting many months before you joined this converstaion.

Again a compromise that most seem to be making and one that still seems to be winning customers and awards in one case. But thats fine symantec clearly no whats best for it customers we will just all skip vsphere 5.1!

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AbdulRasheed's picture

You are right. But I have also mentioned that it is pending endorsement from VMware. As Sean had mentioned, quality and reliability is of utmost importance for a data protection product and I am sure you guys would appreciate that approach. Hacking or working around API issues opens the door for long term problems. We stand behind joint customers of VMware and Symantec like yourself; we will not ship something without putting it to heavy QA. We will keep you posted on the viability of short term fix. I am unable to release more information at this time. 

As always, please do note that none of forward looking statements should be the basis for your planning as they are subject to change. (It is a standard disclaimer I have to provide). 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Tallwood6 and BigTimeOne, 

  To clarify the real situation, I posted this in my personal blog (this blog is not affiliated to Symantec). Hope this will avoid the confusions about what is expected from partners when VMware releases vSphere and VDDK.  http://www.mrvray.com/2012/11/whats-up-with-vadp-backups-and-vddk-on-vsphere-5-1/

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Stuart Green's picture

This one...?

Tip: Get overview/document your NBU environment. Run 'nbsu' and review the output.

• If this provides help, please vote or mark appropriate solution.

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BigTimeOne's picture

Abdul, please keep us posted if we should be OK using NetBackup 7.1.0.4 VDDK 5.0 on vSphere 5.1.

We have been backing up hundreds of VMs with the combo above and so far no issues.

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi BigTimeOne, 

  I had responded to one of your earlier questions about VDDK versions. As of today, VMware does not officially support VDDK 5.0 on vSphere 5.1. The release notes are here: http://www.vmware.com/support/developer/vddk/VDDK-500-ReleaseNotes.html 

  Even the recent update to 5.0 was a bug-fix release, not a proliferation release to vSphere 5.1. I have learned that there are a few vendors who announced support for vSphere 5.1 using this unsupported version of VDDK. That is unfortunate as they are putting their customers data at risk. We are working with VMware on a few possiblities. We will keep you posted. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Thundercleese's picture

Thank you for posting this.  I'll hold off upgrading to ESXi 5.1 until I see it on the Backup Exec SCL.

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Thundercleese, 

  We appreciate your patience. We are actively working with VMware on this matter. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Paul VanDyke's picture

I too am waiting for Symantec to have full vSphere 5.1 support...  However, I'm also re-thinking my backup strategies for my VMs.  I've started to migrate back to agent-based backups and away from VM-based backups.  I have been unhappy with the quality of the VM-based backups I've been doing.

If I continue to be successful moving my backup environment back to agent-based backups, I may go ahead and upgrade to vSphere 5.1 and forget about VM-based backups.

Comments?

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MMoret's picture

Paul VanDyke,

I am very curious what issue's made you rethink your backup strategy?

Regards
Martijn Moret

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Paul,

   As you might have already figured out from the post and various comments, we are actively working with VMware to get you support for vSphere 5.1. I am not sure what you mean by 'the quality of VM based backups". Have you been working with Technical Support? Send me a private note with your case number and I am happy to talk to Support team about it. 

   One of the key advantages of a unified backup solution like NetBackup or Backup Exec is indeed the possibility to protect virtual machine data in multiple ways. My personal preference is to use VADP based backups of VMware. But you do have the choice to run agent based backups as well especially in the situations like vSphere 5.1 where there are issues with the APIs at this time. You have the choice to upgrade now to 5.1 and use agent based backups. Flipping to VADP backups once support is announced is quite easy! 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Paul VanDyke's picture

Martijn and Abdul,

A couple thoughts about VM backups:

I cannot do source-side deduplication with VM backups.  I need to run the remote agent to do source-side dedup.  I can usually get > 3,000MB/min or greater with source-side dedup.  I haven't gotten over 2,000MB/min with VM backups.  I am using NBD, not SAN as my VM transport mechanism.  I have not had the time to configure my media server to share the VMWare LUNs yet to enable SAN transport.  However, with source-side dedup, I don't have to move as much data across the wire.  I have a well-resouced VMWare cluster and can afford the extra CPU cycles in the VM guest machines.

Also, I have really enjoyed the SDR recovery methods and feel really good about the integrity of my data with an agent-based backup and SDR recovery.  I'm not sure that I feel as good using the "crash-consitent" state of a VM-based restore.

Application backups still need to be done outside the VM to get the desired results (i.e. flushing the logs on Exchange server, SQL)

Please help me understand the benefits of VM-based backups vs. agent-based backups.

Thanks,

Paul

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BigTimeOne's picture

When you need to restore the whole VM Server and you only have the Agent based backup most likely your restored Server will not work or will have missing data. You can only restore files. Anything else will mostly cause system corruption or hung restore. Very few restores will work this way. This is not a Physical Server.

That is why you need to use the VM Backup. Where the whole Server can be restored as well as individual files if needed. All in one backup. This combo can not be beat!

Symantec rocks! We just need them to pull a rabbit out of their hats for vSphere 5.1 support!

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Paul VanDyke's picture

BigTimeOne,

I'm not sure that I'm tracking your response...  I'm backing up my virtual servers as if they were physical servers and have SDR enabled.  When restoring the server, I can fire up a VM, mount the SDR ISO image and restore.  It's a "physical" process, but I'm really using a virtual infrastructure to hold it together.  I haven't had any issues with this so far...

Thanks,

Paul

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BigTimeOne's picture

Did not know that was possible. Do you know where I can get more information on the process you are doing? Thanks.

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Paul VanDyke's picture

Another reason I've shy'ed away from VM based backups is the problem on this thread: https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/forums/be2012-beremoteexe-crashes-vmware-backups

If my VM based backup hangs, it kills the beremote.exe service on the media server and then none of my other backups will run.  I have a busy backup schedule with multiple backup jobs running at night and duplicate to tape running during the day.

Thanks,

Paul

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AbdulRasheed's picture

Hi Paul, 

   Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your situation and thought-process. This helps a lot. 

   I believe in matching the correct solution for the problem/situation in hand. One-size-fits-all approaches are inefficient and/or ineffective. 

   In your specific case, your backup server does not have access to the SAN where vSphere datastore resides. Hence you decided to use NBD. It is a great and simple transport. I need to explain how it works to clarify the situation. In NBD transport, VMkernel on your ESXi host is presenting the snapshot over network using Linux-like module driver. The protocol used here is VMware's proprietary NFC (Network File Transfer). We had done a performance benchmark (a little plug, only Symantec does this extensive benchmarks for VADP in partnership with VMware and other vendors like Cisco: the results from the latest benchmark were released at VMworld. Please see  https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/blogs/taking-vmware-vsphere-storage-apis-data-protection-limit-pushing-backup-performance-envelope ) in depth for NBD this year. We found (and VMware engineering confirmed) that VMkernel is designed to cap the throughput per stream when using NBD because you don't want to destabilize the kernel. You will see this cap when you stream NBD backups over 10GigE. That is why single stream NBD backup (which is served by a single threaded NFC call) tend to cap way before the actual bandwidth for the network pipe. You can mitigate this problem by running multiple streams from different ESXi hosts. I am explaining this strategy in that session. 

  I am glad you like source side deduplication and you have ESXi resources to accommodate it. If that is the case, hot-add transport is preferred over NBD as the backup streams are now generated in guest operating system's space (not at the VMkernel) and hence no cap is enforced. 

   Furthermore, if you have sufficient ESXi resources, there is nothing wrong in wanting to do backups with an agent inside the guest as you proposed. The VM-only backup vendors may call you old fashioned, but the reality is that they cannot offer a solution for your specific situation and hence will try to pitch a one-size-fits-all approach! Now-a-days, it is so easy to deploy a vanilla VM from a template and then restore data. Backup Exec also offers bare metal level recovery. Hence you may be looking to protect just the data in the VM. 

   Mmoret is spot-on in terms of the reasons why he prefers VADP backups. The beauty of Symantec solutions (pardon my pitch) is that you have a number of choices and you get to pick the right one for the business situation. Let is know if there is anything we can do for you. Thanks again for taking the time to clarify what your situation had been. 

Warm regards,

Abdul "Rasheed" Rasheed

Tweet me @AbdulRasheed127

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Paul VanDyke's picture

Abdul,

I reviewed the link above and was wondering if the whitepaper referenced was ever published?  That was a fantastic presentation and explained a lot!!

Thanks,

Paul

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MMoret's picture

With NetBackup 7.5, you can go past the application backup for Exchange, SQL and SharePoint.
The source/client side DeDup is a great point!

One of the advantages of Vm based backup is with the right policies, you can never forget to arrange backups. They are automatically added to that policy. 

I also find the combination of DR (full vm restore) and file and application level restore a great feature.

But again, there is no right or wrong, just choices.

I am curious to the speed you would achieve with San transport mode ;-)

Regards
Martijn

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BigTimeOne's picture

Is it safe to say that when I am using NetBackup 7.1.0.4 with vSphere 5.1 and the Backup completes Successfully and I don't see any errors from VMware side or Symantec side that the Backup can be successfully restored?

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Tallwood6's picture

Do some test restores for each VM..
When I contacted support about a month ago to ask what the support situation was with backup exec 2012 and vsphere 5.1 he had seen customers using the current version to backup vsphere 5.1 VMs without any issues "unsupported of course".

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SpawnXX's picture

So many bugs in Symantec BE 2012. They should fix the actual supported version before adding more complexity .

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Drew Meyer's picture

SpawnXX, stay glued to this blog for some further communication in December.

Director of Marketing, NetBackup
@DrewMeyerSYMC

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BigTimeOne's picture

If the fix coming in December from vmware.

When can we expect Symantec supporting the product for NetBackup 7.1.x and 7.5.x product lines or which product versions will have support for vSphere 5.1?

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BigD9484's picture

Shouldn't you guys be beta testing partners with VMware?  It's a little ridiculous to not be able to upgrade customers to a 6 month old version of VMware because Symantec is that far behind.  How different could the API's between 5.0 and 5.1 be?

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BigTimeOne's picture

Exactly same with Server 2012/Windows 8 Support. Excuses all the time. Wait 6-9 months after product goes mainstream.

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SpawnXX's picture

I said the same comment to my VMware Sale Rep and to a Symantec Tech Guy. Both blame each other and we "the clients" are between a  war of ego.

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BigTimeOne's picture

Symantec we need more updates! This is not acceptable. What is the status?

Which versions of Symantec NetBackup will have official support?

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Tallwood6's picture

I don't think we are going to get much news this side of the holidays. In the mean time Symantec must be bleeding customers as the wait for server 2012 support seems to be taking an age as well.

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MMoret's picture

Hi,

I read this document and with a few remakrs vSphere 5.1 is now fully supported.
How can we communicate this to our customers?

Yeah, it was not supported, they did not change anything and claim full support now?
Is this the quality you want?

Please give me a detailed statement why support is there with no patches or config changes???

Source: http://www.symantec.com/business/support/index?page=content&id=TECH127089

Regards
Martijn Moret
Symantec partner...

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BigTimeOne's picture

On page. 12 of the document it says

NetBackup 7.5.0.4 supports backup and recovery of vSphere 5.1.
The following issues will be resolved in a future release:

It then basically lists any new OS or functions will be resolved in the future. What a joke!

Also what happend to ALL BACKUPS WILL FAIL thing or was that over hyped to buy some time?

Where is support for current 7.1.x versions?

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BigTimeOne's picture

Here is the VMware statement on Backups

http://blogs.vmware.com/vsphere/2012/12/setting-re...

See that part where it says they are working with vendors to use VDDK 5.0 U1 to back up vSphere 5.1.

Thanks for the update Symantec! Keep updating us some more!!!

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b1gg1e's picture

Have you any good news about support of VMWare ESXi 5.1 by Backup Exec 2012?

And one more question. How can we backup our VM's on vSphere 5.1 with Backup Exec 2012? We have BE 2012 V-Ray Edition licence. Should we buy editional licenses to install BE agent's on OS inside every VM?

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ZeRoC00L's picture

The v-ray edition includes the right to install the BE Remote Agent on every VM.

It also includes the Agent for Applications and Databases. See:

http://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/enterprise/fact_sheets/b-symc_backup_exec_2012_vray_edition_overview_DS_21227307.en-us.pdf

If this response answers your concern, please mark it as a "solution"

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BigTimeOne's picture

Track back to the posts here.

https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/forums/vsp...

Now they seem to support it partially. However Symantec claimed all backup will fail until VMware fixes the issue.

As of now neither Symantec or VMware fixed anything. So whats the deal Symantec?

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Drew Meyer's picture

Hi readers - see my update to the original post above for some answers.

Director of Marketing, NetBackup
@DrewMeyerSYMC

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Tallwood6's picture

So we are looking at end of April at best for support but the looks of the beta program. Am I correct in assuming after all this you will be using the vddk 5.0 u1 API's NOT the updated vddk 5.1?

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Tallwood6's picture

So we are looking at end of April at best for support but the looks of the beta program. Am I correct in assuming after all this you will be using the vddk 5.0 u1 API's NOT the updated vddk 5.1?

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Drew Meyer's picture

Tallwood, there are a number of factors at play. Suffice to say that we'll have VDDK 5.0 U1 or VDDK 5.1 U1 in the final, which will be supported by us and VMware on BE 2010 and BE 2012.

Director of Marketing, NetBackup
@DrewMeyerSYMC

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BigTimeOne's picture

Still does not answer the questions below.

1) You are now officially supporting vSphere 5.1 but the VDDK issue is still there. So why do you claim support now when you did not a few weeks ago since nothing changed except a future fix will be done from vmware. Which we already knew was needed and you claimed there was not sure way to guarantee reliability?

2) Why not announce support for vSphere 5.1 on NetBackup 7.1.0.4 if we know it is working fine with VDDK 5.0 U1/U2 which will probably be used in your Client Package for 7.5.x as well?

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Tallwood6's picture

You haven't really dealt with this very well, first you claim every backup product that claims support is putting everyone's data at risk despite many using vddk5.0 u1 which is what netbackup IS using to currently support vsphere 5.1. You keep pointing fingers at vmware but vmware just points the finger back and congratulates those vendors that took the initiative and worked round bugs. Now best of all instead of getting much needed support in the product as part of a smaller update perhaps its been lumped in to a much larger service pack which may not see the light of day until as others have mentioned vsphere 6.0 is out the door.
Do we get proper updates from symantec staff NO just the same old look at the SCL, you are probably the only backup vendor now not offering support for vsphere 5.1 because they rather than you took some initiative and realised people can't hold out for nearly a year if there business needs it.

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Drew Meyer's picture

Tallwood6 and BigTimeOne, here's another attempt. The bottom line is our intention is to bring support to market, safely, while developing new features across multiple product lines. Hope this is clearer.

1. We discovered issues; VMware acknowledged the issues; everyone using VDDK 5.1 was at risk.
2. We dug in with VMware to figure out a joint solution. This testing is what changed in the last few months.
3. We've completed the due diligence together and now support vSphere on our platforms as follows:
 

A. Backup Exec 2010 and 2012 are beta testing vsphere 5.1 support in their next Service Pack. This is anticipated to go to market long before vSphere 6 (though I am not a VMware employee so cannot comment on their roadmap).
B. NetBackup 7.5.0.4 has now been tested with various VDDK versions and we've agreed with VMware on a jointly supported method for vSphere 5.1. We have no plans to extend support to previous versions. If you would like more NetBackup details, that blog is the best place to take up the thread.

BigTimeOne, BE does NOT officially support this yet. It's in beta.

Tallwood, we thought we were aligned with VMware; DM me if you have further concerns. I encourage you to check ou the beta as it is a Service Pack for both BE platforms with new platform support and lots of enhancements.

Director of Marketing, NetBackup
@DrewMeyerSYMC

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BigTimeOne's picture

1) NetBackup 7.1.0.4 is the latest version for 7.1 Spring 2012 release which is very stable and released almost at the same time as 7.5.0.4. It does work with vSphere 5.1 without any issues.

Why can't Symantec add this to the official compatibility list?

2) When will file level VSS Application consistent backup/restore be available for NetBackup 7.1 or 7.5 for Windows Server 2012?

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antspants's picture

We support many customers with both Backup Exec & Veeam.

Veeam never misses a beat, supports 5.1 and does synthetics and dedupe without having to fork out for yet another license. Can backup and restore Exchange items without, you guessed it, another license.

Backup Exec, umm, it supports Enterprise Vault.

Get more development staff on your backup exec team. Some how, Veeam came from nowhere and are now your biggest competitor. Will soon be too late, this is going viral.

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Stuart Green's picture

Particularly when Veeam have tape in their product roadmap....

Tip: Get overview/document your NBU environment. Run 'nbsu' and review the output.

• If this provides help, please vote or mark appropriate solution.

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CraigV's picture

...let's be honest here, Veeam with tape-out functionality (reported to be 1st quarter) is scary for ANY vendor at the moment...

Alternative ways to access Backup Exec Technical Support:

https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/blogs/alte...

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Stuart Green's picture

And there you are.

http://www.veeam.com/blog/the-countdown-continues-announcing-tape-support-in-veeam-backup-replication-v7.html

I run both Veeam and NetBackup in our Enterprise, I will find it hard to justify the use of NetBackup after this is released.

This is from an Enterprise where we have had a mixture of HP-UX. TRU64, OpenVMS, Windows and Linux OS from Netbackup v3.4 up to currently installed v7.1

Now only run Windows and Linux. (virtualized)

Tip: Get overview/document your NBU environment. Run 'nbsu' and review the output.

• If this provides help, please vote or mark appropriate solution.

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hnuman's picture

well, sometimes BE2012 makes me sick with its bugs (I really digged BE forums and solved the issues ) but on this problem VmWare accepts that their code has potential problems so I dont understand how do you trust Veam or another software, staying VmWare 5.0.0 U2 seems much more reliable at the moment... When VmWare says that they fixed the bugs then we can push Symantec to correct the problem but currently ball is at VmWare guy's hands... I want to use VmWare 5.1's features but I dont want any dangeous adventure.

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CraigV's picture

...good to see support from the other side of the fence!

Alternative ways to access Backup Exec Technical Support:

https://www-secure.symantec.com/connect/blogs/alte...

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Tallwood6's picture

Veeam acknowledged the issue with vddk 5.1 shortly after vSphere 5.1 was actually released and coded safeguards to mitigate the issues. Look on the veeam forums and you dont see users complaining that the product is buggy and unreliable when used with esxi 5.1.

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hnuman's picture

I really don want to defend Backup 2012 but if VmWare API has a problem, you can try to walk around but the most reliable way is to stay away for a while.

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